(no subject)

[mangosteen]

There are any number of times that people who like to argue (but aren't really into the whole 'informed discussion' thing) roll out the same tired arguments or phrasings when talking about current events. Everyone likes to have something to say, even if they don't have anything to contribute. Ordinarily, I'd just point people at any number of listings of logical fallacies, but sometimes more concrete answers are necessary. As such, I'd like to list several of the more content-free utterances, along with appropriate responses. I invite others to leave additional instances in the comments. So, without further ado....

List: Annoying debate tactics I have known and loathed.

"If you knew what I knew..."
- But I don't, and you haven't given me any reason to believe you. Try again.

"Tell that to $person_something_bad_happened_to, [...]"
- Well it's a good thing that we're not talking about $person, then. Please state your counterexamples in the form of substantiated facts. Thanks.

"All $disadvantaged_minorty has to do is $vague_task."
- Anything is possible for someone who doesn't have to do it, good sir.

"Why are you hiding behind a dictionary? We should use the real meaning."
- Because if we can't agree on a meaning, then spatula egg martian woodchipper, by which I mean "your wankery flusters me".

"We haven't had any $event since $date. Obviously, $policy works."
- Actually, I think it's because I forgot to brush my teeth on $date. Prove me wrong.

"Well I have a cousin who did $thing"
- Well, I have a cousin who didn't do $thing. We're even. Can we get back to the topic?

"$assertion now more than ever."
- Like anyone could know that.

"So you would rather that $bad_thing happened?"
- Nice strawman. Glad you got it out of your system. Try again.

Finally, for one that's specifically on a topic:
"Give me ONE example of how YOUR civil rights have been violated since 9/11."
- They're ALL OF OUR civil rights, so an attack on one person's is an attack on all. If you can't figure that out, Pastor Niemoller has a poem for you. My one example is José Padilla. Next question.

Comments

[curly-chick.livejournal.com]

I have gotten to the point in my life where I don't enjoy having these debates with people anymore. If the point isn't to share information, or really discuss theories, but instead to engage in a "winning the debate" technique I lose interest in the topic pretty damn quickly. I find, honestly, it is a mainly male thing, and it is a form of communication that I just don't get.

Maybe it is because I am a lawyer and engage in this tomfoolery about cases, but I wonder what it is about our type of people (and I say this with all the love in my heart about many of our overlapping friends) that enjoy this kind of discourse.

Really, I would rather spend an hour with you discussing your perspective on the chinese language (which I know nothing about) or an hour with your lovely wife, asking her about censorship in children's books and libraries (which I know some about) than have a debate about foreign policy with people who I like, but am never going to learn from. Isn't the point, at this point, to learn from people rather than pulling my penis out and going "see, mine is still larger?"

Sorry for ranting in your journal...you opened the door and I stepped on through...

[bridgetminerva.livejournal.com]

Can I quote your Dictionary example?

[dariusk.livejournal.com]

"Why are you hiding behind a dictionary? We should use the real meaning."

This goes way, way, WAAAY deep into the prescriptivism v. descriptivism debate.

[pinkfish.livejournal.com]

I haven't found myself in a "discussion" like this in years; not since I de cided to stop reading usenet.

What is it about you, that you find yourself talking to people like this?

[dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com]

Everybody loves truth by assertion!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_nicolai_/]

A less thorough refutation of the "show me how your civil rights have been violated", in my personal case, is "Someone just like me [ a goth in Camden ] did something just like me [ made rude comments sotto voce about the ineffective security measures ] and was harassed and threatened with arrest by the police for doing so".

[http://users.livejournal.com/_nicolai_/]

"This will cause unimaginable disaster! You can't imagine how bad it will be!"
No, even if it did happen, it will cause a completely imaginable disaster, and we can start going through the consequences now. I can imagine it just fine, thanks, even if it doesn't make me happy.

"If we don't do this the enemy have already won!"
Let's first check out what the enemy objectives might be, and compare that with the effects of your proposed action, shall we? They should not match.

[xeger.livejournal.com]

"If you knew what I knew..."
- But I don't, and you haven't given me any reason to believe you. Try again.


Well - given that I've been in the position of having information that I can't share, it can be hideously frustrating trying not to say "If you knew what I knew..."

Then again, I'd rather say "I have information that I wish I could share".

totally off topic...

[1muse.livejournal.com]

sooo great (finally!) seeing you again last night!